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Western societies are making that aspect of a man obsolete. In societies where women have very little power, they use their feminity as weapons, which is why nations use women, far more than men as spies. January 26, at am. Very well said. I love men that are masculine, and I like being feminine. No, Edna. Very much the opposite. Your femininity will still be there after your looks are gone.
In fact, looks are the one thing that can make a masculine woman attractive, and once she is less attractive, then her lacking in personality will be even more notable. Lately, I feel that masculine men are under siege by liberalism. I think its time for women in their lives to make themselves heard. Sexual polarity naturally makes men are more highly valued for factors they can change, like their career, and have more power over finances, and place their self-worth on their abilities instead of having to hope that they are beautiful and that some man finds them worth his time, energy, and money.
Risk vs reward, right? This is just my opinion, based on personal experience. Or easier? I would have done anything for him,I did do so many things, I did his homework for him, dressed beautifully, kissed him every day and looked at him like a king, but instead he made fun of me, and was threatened anytime I tried to talk to him about something meaningful Not regurgitated polemics And apparently, if I want to date men, things will only get worse as I get older?
That sounds great for the men who get to flitter from one insecure something to the next as long as they have a steady career, but for women it is awful. For me, the man I loved was ugly; huge head, small body, lots of acne, fat lips, huge bags under his eyes, weird moles, I could go on, but I still loved him, and my heart still fluttered every time I saw him, and nothing made me happier than to rest my head against his chest and caress his face. You know why?
Because I thought he loved me, I thought he cared for me, and wanted to share his life with me. They use women to make them feel stronger and more powerful.
Tell me honestly Edna, if you married a man that had a good job earned seven figures and had a plan his life and a purpose. And then one day he lost his job sat on the couch and just ate chips and drank beer, no purpose no desire to achieve or do anything with his life. Waiting for you to come home and fix dinner. Would you still love and respect and desire her? This is just biology. Generally as a woman gets older and wiser through life, the men who stop appreciating her true qualities as a human being are the ones who lack any of those qualities themselves.
Naturally superficial people who lack true self confidence are attracted to the same type of person. Exactly the same is true of a woman. Any man -or woman- who really knows their value and WHAT they value in life, can truly love and appreciate another for those more substantial, deeper elements. Nevertheless, I suspect there was more going on in the relationships of the two commenters above then what they have written.
A man likes to feel needed and respected and no one does this better than a young woman. These are an aphrodisiac to him whether or not he knows it, especially if he is going through his mid-life crisis. It has nothing to do with his wife love or dedication to him. I understand why women have moved towards self sufficiency. Its a gamble not to. Wonderful comment. Interesting remark Fred, yes a woman still loves her husband when life turns bad.
My husband would get drunk, disappear just to get out of the house and now I deal with him day after day, but I still love this man, I still remember the love I felt at the start, I will never forget this. Stick your opinions of femininity , you are just a closed minded dime a dollar Male. December 24, at pm. It is too difficult for a man to stand by and know there is nothing he can do to help his child. Now, that your motherly duties are done I would suggest that you lose the weight and weight training is the best way to do it because it will build up your muscles and fit your skin back to your body as the weight comes off.
Take the love you have for your daughter and put it in your smile. She is at peace now it is you who have to keep living. Femininity embodies a peaceful and gentle spirit, which is intoxicating to everyone you come into contact with. They made something of the life they had been left with. Many of them became wealthy or made it so their children did. They had a perspective on life that I will never have and so do you. Even a bad hand can win the pot and you may as well look good while you do it. September 4, at pm. Great point Fred.
When i talk about my career, women look at me the same way I look at a girl in low cut shorts.
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September 11, at pm. Ha… are you even brag material? What is to brag about if more good looking and talented men with better personality and higher positions than you exists in hundreds and thousands? The still inexperienced naive women who fell for the brags? What about if in front of a more successful men? Do you listen to them brag instead? Remember this old Chinese proverbs: Above the tallest mountain, there is the Sky whom the mountain will never be.
But… yuup.. November 27, at am. Feminism is certainly not making relationships any better. And Edna is mistaking femininity for a physical trait rather then a personality trait. It is a skill. And women that want to stay with a desirable, masculine successful man, and to make him happy, and be happy themselves, would be smart to work on it. Fred is making total sense. I am sorry for your pain Edna and what you experienced. My ex-husband cheated on me and abused me, and it was horrible. While he hurt me, I had fault there too.
I can see that now. After a few failed relationships, plus a long time of being alone, I met a man who I love and adore. He is wonderful, strong and protective, loving and caring. He is respectful and handsome and interested in how I feel. He is not perfect, but I respect him and his imperfections, which make him unique and have shaped who he is. He was worth the wait and the pain. I would do it all again, if he leads me back to him. Good men are out there — and there are more of them than you might think. Stay open-hearted. Good luck to you! I 2nd this and congrats Anna, for getting your life back in track and being so much happier than in the past.
Hi Edna, perhaps you posted this a long time ago.. I understand how you feel. Men sometimes are strange creatures and can be undeniably selfish. But from what i have observed about your relationship.. You feed your fears.. Loving from the heart means not blaming someone for what you offered them or gave them out of your own will. Loving from the heart is not rationalizing your fears but feeling them and calming them down because you love this man.
About femininity, it has nothing to do with age.. When you laugh at his sill jokes or make him laugh by being sarcastic or witty at times. Femininity is not about young age, but it is the innocence and no judgement of another human being because you always put yourself in his shoes. Its okay to be angry at him, all men, all young women and me for posting this comment. I went out with my buddies who go out, get laid and share the nudes of that girl on social media without their consent. They cat call other girls and pick up fight with random strangers. I am sorry for what you have gone through.
Give the next guy a chance and you maybe surprised. For millenia, men married women decades younger. In this scenario, their sexual value diminishes together. By the time a woman is in her forties, her man is approaching sixty, with hardly the sex drive for her, let alone to cheat. Before viagra. You cant place your female morals on a man. We desire novel sex because of our evolution. Romance novels and love songs are nothing more than a product sold for women.
Dont believe them. There are no men who want what you want. Some can pretend for a while. Some can trick themselves. Some can take cute pics with their chick and look like a perfect couple. But deep down, we men fantasize about stuff that will make you sick. Throughout history, women had more of their social needs met by other women. Men would be hunting and bonding while women bonded through gathering and caretaking. Every woman I meet tells me she has all guy friends. This is new, and its not good. It sounds like your ex did not need you for validation or for his social needs.
Thats a great place for a man to be. Unfortunately, you were looking to him for that, when you may have needed more positive female connections. I recommend you start dating men much older. You will be on the same value level. Spending more time with feminine women could help you too. Im working hard to make more male friendships and have older male role models.
Its tough, but its way more fulfilling than trying to be best friends with a female. We are different species altogether. Good luck. October 28, at am. The latest research indicates that the closer the age of the couple, the more successful the marriage. Research also indicates that aside from a smaller number of May-December marriages, most couples are near the same age. As a woman, I have zero desire to be with a man who is much older than me. I know a woman who is married to a man 19 years older than herself.
However, he got very sick and almost died. Though he recovered, he can no longer have sex and long travel is difficult. In her fifties, she still has a lot of energy. She is living a very different life than her friends who are married to men who are close in age. Wealthy men married younger women because their families gave them to these men in order to forge an agreement but commoners married each other at the appropriate age.
December 24, at am. Telling women to marry much older men to insure themselves against infidelity is clearly an indication that you have no formal qualifications in Relationship counseling nor any real experience with this subject. Men have sick fantasies….. This is even more so if she is 20 years younger than him so your theory of women marrying much older men is likely to blow up in your face when your sitting at home in your wheel chair will your younger wife is banging the 20 yrs who likes older women because their mature, experienced and emotionally stable.
Hi Edna. I want to say that your experience reminds me of my past ones. As a guy, I told my dates many things about myself and ended up frustrated and hurt. And I think what you did was going to fast. I live in Canada, which is the same as USA in my honest opinion. You experienced hurt from a guy who had no love for you probably cause you trusted him to early on. As for myself I trusted this girl before too early on and hurt myself deeply in the process. But I did not hate or give up on a good woman.
But I do feel I am not respected enough. I get much criticism through my week, and complaints about my decisions. My wife is Asian, but has been in Canada for over 12 years. And the Americanized way did have a profound effect on her. But there is hope and we both will change for the better.
I am not perfect myself, but I do love her. To sum up, western culture is about erasing borders, and giving authority to everyone. Its a mess, a work in progress to chaos for the man and woman. But I do admire older cultures of Asia, middle east and European for their traditional relationship styles. They were better than the modern ones now. I suggest you look for a traditional value man, out there somewhere, and allow the trust to build over time.
Trust your gut first, if there seems to be some issues, then its best you discuss those with him, or just move on to another. Until you find a man where you see him recognize you for who you are, and then build the trust up getting to know him. Edna, that is fine for you. But NO. Your choice to not be hurt by a man gain has nothign to do with this discussion really. You just are not listening. Femininity is a personality trait. A man can be very masculine, but not that attractive.
A woman can be very feminine. In fact, a woman that is feminine, caring, and pleasant to be around is very much MORE likely to keep the love of her husband as she ages. A woman that has been working on herself, and trying to become better at things that interest her will not be any more likely to appeal to a man as she ages. You will just have wimpy men who will still hope that beautiful women want them. January 25, at am. Hi Edna You may never see this comment, but here goes.
If you can forgive his ignorance, you will probably meet another guy and he may be better. Your insecurity about your looks as you age are normal. With that said if you are feminine and vulnerable yet not naive to early warning signs of a bad man, you may catch a good one. I dated a lot of women who were full of fear and baggage. They lost me because they could not trust me no matter what. No I would definitely not date a guy who lost his job and sat down and did nothing, a good girlfriend would motivate him to get his job and to get up. And there is femininity should not be a defined, especially by a man.
Men can have expectations but woman should choose how feminine they should be, they should be able to define femininity for themselves especially since all men have done have crushed. Why will they take on label with no meaning, if it has no meaning it has no strength. Femininity is up to the woman, they do it to please themselves.
This blog should truly be deleted because if every woman was like this then truly would a man settle for one woman? A woman does not need to be vulnerable to be feminine. Maverick did you even bother going on another date with this woman? So a woman should show you her femininity immediately?
And polarity, a woman can be proud of their gender, be willing to commit to a man or woman and know their sex and still take on different roles. This outlook is called Feminism. It is to blame for the decline of western marriages, and generations of men missing out on their father figures. It has also led to horrible health in American women, obesity, a sexless culture, unhappiness and of course loneliness.
If you have an open mind, spend some weeks in latin america. Pick any city. Sit in the park and observe. You will see women kissing their men. Complimenting them. Even older couples. Statistically they are happier women, those couples stay together longer, and they have sex three times as often as western anglo countries.
Well then. Just go live in Latin America. Case closed. Who are you? A certified expert? I come from Asian country where women have no problem in their more feminine roles. Some men are just not worth the trouble. And shower them with it. And watch them reciprocate it to a fulfilling and long relationship. Otherwise, dont bother being sweet to those who think its their birthright for being assholes. Be careful as there are many Narcisist on the loose.
Been there, learnt a hard lesson. Just remember to respect both your men but also yourself. For Men: If you want the good catchs, you also have to do your bit. Some becomes like this because there are many unworthy men. And perhaps this is their defense until they find the perfect guy. Hey,men use this excuse all times. Women can do so too:-p. February 27, at pm. This is the best comment on here, and I agree completely.
Also, that feminine grace is all she has that keeps her attractive as she gets older and she continually gives that to you in return for your loyalty. I find it incredibly amusing when Fred and other people like him espouse Latin American women as the pinnacle of femininity, but fail to realise why these women feel safe and comfortable in being feminine and showing this feminine side to their men. Too many American men are assholes, brutish, have no self-respect, brag about cheating and treat women like crap. And some are actually good at the beginning and then turn into idiotic assholes as things progress.
David, no one has to go to Latin America to see women respecting their man or loving him, they just have to get outside the city or their normal area of influence and see most of America or at least the Christian culture because they do all of this. Those feminine women earn a lot less than men. Of course they must please and flirt with men who provides for them. The feminist women does not want to please the guy for money, she honestly wants to earn it and get paid as much as men and stay with the guy she really loves.
This way American women does not have to beg money from him. Do you want to give your money to feminine women who will please you because she eats your food? You as a woman are equal to men in a lot of aspects. A lot of women now a days tend to corner men, they are independent, make their own money and have the means to pleasure themselves. So basically a lot of women say there is no need for men.
No need to put men down, they are human too and they are being judged as much if not more as women are. Men just want a woman who can depend on them, and who will not make them feel inferior to them. Feminine women understand that there is a reason to have a man by your side. Not sure how this works into your notion of femininity. Actually we find the author of this blog, and idiotic penis owners like him, ignorant and sexist as fuck. Any intelligent and sensible woman avoids guys like this like the plague.
Like come on. We men see and acknowledge our ego. Its what makes us men. Evolution made us this way. Writers who discuss it honestly are publishing what the rest of us have been thinking for decades. The women in our lives and on tv have just made us ashamed of it. The truth is, they are miserable, lonely women and would learn a lot if they spent some time in a country with more traditional values. Those countires have stronger families, and longer lasting marriages.
If you have a problem with this article, you have a problem with billions of women much happier than you.
If you really want to look at it rationally, you need to look at gender roles in primates. Articles like this are only suggesting that people might be happier in the roles that evolution designed for them. Fight your biology if you want, but its the road to loneliness. There are plenty of cats who need adopting. September 9, at am. Well, women evolved since the 70s. But again and one more time: only be the nicest and most feminine to men that truly matters in your life whether directly or indirectly. The ones that will have a somewhat balanced give and take relationship.
Only to have the shock in their lives when they actually date an Asian woman. Do the math lah! Want to be treated as kings? As the wife of a black man and the mother of two black sons, my radar for both explicit and implied racism is finely tuned. As a woman, a feminist and a lawyer, I have an abiding commitment to anti-discrimination norms, and to race and sex discrimination laws in particular.
As a humanist, I believe that each one of us has the right to self-identify. But none of this confuses me about sex, sex traits, and their irrefutable salience in law and society. The reason there are policies against sex discrimination—including policies that encourage affirmative action for females—is because females have been subordinated across time and geography on the explicit basis of sex, and precisely because of our sex-specific biology. This includes the biology that determines the performance gap in elite sport. The sex-based physical differences in strength, power and endurance that allow thousands of men and boys each year to surpass the performance of the single best female are the very same differences that make us especially vulnerable to stranger and domestic violence, including to sexual violence.
This includes our different reproductive biology. For example, our endocrine cycles are the basis for menstrual-period segregations in many societies, and in sport these same cycles cause us to lose valuable iron stores and diminish our red blood cell counts and oxygen carrying capacity relative to boys and men. It is to minimize these loses that we often choose to take birth control pills to regulate our cycles. There is a lot that is beautiful, powerful even, about being female, including, and perhaps especially, our capacity to bear children.
And so, when we are told that 46, XY males with DSD who identify as female are no different from us because identity is all that matters, the effect is to erase our deeply significant, sex-specific experience both on and off the track. When we are told these things directly and indirectly by sports governing bodies, we feel betrayed.
We also feel robbed: of the spots on the podium; of the psychic, financial, and professional goods that would have flowed from earning our places there; and of the opportunities to be role models for little girls who need to see strong, victorious females so that they can dream big dreams themselves. Social science literature focused on race and sex is replete with empirical evidence supporting the common-sense intuition that it matters that people can see successful role models who look like them.
We are just puzzled about why others are—or would want to pretend to be. Elite sport is in the business of bodies, what they can do, and how beautiful they are at their fittest. The truth is that we know secondary sex characteristics well. We watched them develop over the course of our adolescences and, even on the track, we were witness to their effects on our relative performances: At 12 years old, we were the same or sometimes even faster than the boys, but over time, and certainly by age 18, those same boys were unreachable.
Whenever females in the field have dared to express their concerns about these various erasures, Ms. The effect for the females in the field is to censor their voices in their own spaces. It is to bully them into a new and ironic subordination: In a setting that was carved out for females so that they would be protected from athletic dominance by males, they are not permitted even to take note that this is happening.
If their faces or body language betray even the slightest hint of unease, Ms. And so, they learn to stand stoic at the end of each race, and to freeze their faces into what they hope is a wholly neutral, inoffensive expression. Some have sought to turn this forced silence and feigned neutrality into evidence that the female field is actually comfortable with the current state of affairs. As Sarah Ditum wrote in The Economist last year,. The word is misogyny.
Ignoring the fact that Ms. These critics betray their own ignorance when they say these things. For the non-doped females on the track, though, the difference is mostly irrelevant. I wanted to be able—as accurately as possible—to describe the concerns they themselves did not feel free to express, either publicly or at the court. What I found was a lot of confusion about the science; deep hurt about being bullied into silence by false accusations of ignorance, racism, and bad sportsmanship; and a combination of pain and frustration about the competitive status quo.
But at least at the elite level, where athletes and their families are making extraordinary sacrifices so that they can make teams, finals and podiums, it is more reasonable to presume that most are not. Almost everyone I spoke with was in this camp. Semenya is an extraordinary person. She is courageous, resilient and dignified. It is beyond doubt that this road has been a difficult one for her to travel. It was difficult for me to bear witness to her process—even as she remained unbelievably gracious throughout. The stakes were always much higher than these individual interests, of course, which is why the case gets so much attention.
If the Olympic Movement could continue to define the category using at least female T levels, the progressive project that is empowering girls and women through sport had a future. Semenya undoubtedly contributes to their achievement. I applaud the CAS for making the right decision. As an m runner, she became the U. I am outraged that such a transphobic and cis-privileged article should appear here on Quillette, especially written by a law professor at a major American university. They want to compete, but structural and societal oppression is preventing them from doing so.
Their hard-won gains are bitterly fought by those benefiting from cisgender privilege. Great Piece. Science provides a way to measure the difference between a female and male body Biological differences do exist and can be proven. No problem. If, that is, officials deign to have another category besides Male and Female. Yes, a separate category for trans people, intersex, and those who want to dope. That might actually be entertaining enough to be viable! There was a time when Women were not allowed to go to college or compete for combat roles in the US military or Blacks could not go to retail establishments.
My take is the best in any given category could be forced to compete against in interested athelite outside of their cateogory. Basically, this means that Males could compete against All women and let the best person win. Although, I wonder about Age categories does a 60 year old boxer have to compete with a 20 year old. You need to give individuals their rights, but if other people wantly to freely associate in their distinct categories why not. Another article seeking to find support for a specific confected victimhood. When I played squash, there were grades from A1 — F5 in the comp…it made no sense to play in a grade in which you get slaughtered on a regular basis or a grade in which you can beat all the others playing left handed.
All we are discussing here irrespective of your social-engineering stance is what the handicap rules are for a given competition. My view is that you are making a mountain out of a molehill. I suggest you play a competition with handicap rules which give you the challenge appropriate to your ability.lee.dev3.develag.com/map2.php
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Excellent article that is right on point. Facts are in order. And she hits the ball right out of the park. So sorry that you are offended. Your temper tantrum is a bit childish! But just make sure to leave out the emotional outbursts. Just the facts maam! If you get your way women sports will be dominated by genetic males, who developed physically w male testosterone levels. The Professor is right. I completely agree with you. What happened to the world?
A person who has the scientifically proven range of testosterone levels. Why is it unfair? If males are allowed to run in races for females what would be the effect? The end. We need a whole lot more wisdom, knowledge, and understanding in the world. She is a genetic male who suffers from a mutation of the testosterone receptor in her body. Hence her female external genitalia and her assignment of female at birth by the midwife.
She has partial androgen insensitivity syndrome, meaning she has some responsiveness to testosterone. There are a goodly number of XY individuals with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome who have very typical female appearance but are utterly unresponsive to the high testosterone levels in their bodies. There are over individual different mutations of the androgen receptor that have been identified.
Back when we karyotyped all female competitors for sex testing, we found quite a few of these individuals. The logical solution seems fairly obvious: Y chromosome? Not eligible to compete as a female. The fairest mitigator for intersex and trans individuals would be to create two additional categories of competition, the first defined as including people with a specific list of intersex conditions which can be modified if additional syndromes are discovered , and the second as people who are genetically and biochemically male- or female-bodied and have chosen to transition to the opposite gender.
The truth is that the author has more points in the intersectional victim Olympics pun intended than you. My advice for you is to go to the Black Student Union at Duke. Try to drum a constituency against the author. You will do better if you try the LGBT…. But not well enough. If the author was a white male, your prospects would be a lot better. But alas, that is not true.
I simply have to assume your comment is in jest. The same questions of course apply to all sports in which women compete. Would that be OK with you? Thus you graphically illustrate the point she and other female athletes have been making. I believe Caster Semenya is not a transwoman, she is an intersex person who was assigned female gender at birth. Nor would I suggest that a professor holding the views you express should resign.
Check out this article, it says it better than I will. So you want to take away from what women have fought so hard for because another gender designation has come along and feels entitled to it? But only the women will lose…only the women have to give anything up…but if we women have anything to say about it…then we should resign… Haha. Back in the kitchen with us! I really do not care what an adult chooses to do with their body — what drugs they wish to ingest, what body parts they wish to add or remove.
Sorry, men and women are different. Your disdain for cis gendered women is your issue. You will always need to take drugs, you will have to have major cosmetic surgery, and biologically, you are still a man. And in closing, go start your own sports categories. You can compete against biological women who identify as men, and biological men who identify as women.
That would at least be fair. That would at least be logical. So all transgenders can have their own events, their own categories. The ONLY reason a transgender person would not be down for their own events and categories is because they are not good enough athletes to compete against men or other transgenders. FYI Caster Semenya is not a transwoman, she is intersex. This means she is one of about 1 in people who are born with Sex characteristics of both genders.
Such infants are generally assigned a gender at birth, in her case she was assigned female. I find their halting grip on reality disappointing to say the least. How is it trans-phobic to ask someone with the advantage of extra testosterone to simply lower her t levels to create a more even playing field with other women? As I understand it, she does not identify as cis anyway. She identifies as a woman, a lesbian woman to be exact. I, on the other hand, am happy and pleased to see an article which is about reality, not transgender fiction.
Women are not able to compete with men. M2F men are men. I am amazed at the number of replies to Outraged. It is clearly a parody and the reason it is funny is because of its total straight-facedness. The facts are so bizarre and against all common sense. As many have stated, the only solution is a third category for those who are not men or women. A trans sports competition will have to be created if the demise of all sports competitions is to be avoided. I am deeply troubled by the fact a single woman would agree to compete with anyone who is not a biological female.
They should and, ultimately will, stop competing. She must resign. Imagine the kind of example this sets for her oppressed trans sisters, from one in a position of power at a major American law school, and from one who herself admits how important such example is. She is completely blind to her cis privilege. They take for granted they should be the ones making the big bucks, just cause they are white. She is making the exact same argument wrt cis vs. She is holding on to her cisgender privilege in a cisgenderist society for dear life. Worse yet, she is attempting to use her status on other axes of oppression such as race and gender in order to justify it.
That is absolutely despicable, every bit as much as white women using their oppressed status to justify their own oppression of their black and Hispanic sisters. Thanks for the explanation — it is a handy insight into the gender delusion that has consumed much of society and the attack on biological women and femininity in general. People have the right to live there lives a crazy or not crazy gender dysmorphic individuals, and be treated as to their preferred gender, but for all the reasons outlined in this article when those rights to a constructed identity come into conflict with the rights of genuine biological identity, then the constructed rights of the individual need to be subordinate to societies biological foundation.
I believe Caster Semenya is not a transwoman, rather an intersex person who was assigned female gender at birth. You are incredibly brainwashed, outrage. The article is referencing the disparate outcomes in sport involving testosterone and biological sex. No matter the gender orientation of the athlete, those factors create a physical advantage or privilege if you will. Your position on this matter is actually telling of your own privilege as a highly educated, wealthy, white person. Who determines that what we should care about is who can run the fastest, or throw something the farthest, or beat someone else to a bloody pulp inside a ring, and that those who do so should be the ones rewarded with the big bucks?
Yes, I may be highly educated, cis, and white though not wealthy , but I have checked my privilege at the door and listened to what my trans brothers and sisters have to say about their experiences in a cisgendered society. For me to tell them what they should be, instead of them telling me what they are, is the very definition of cissplaining.
Your argument is non-scientific to the point of idiocy. Outraged, though you have checked your cis privilege at the door, I find it difficult to stomach your blatant Terrian bipedal privilege, so prominently on display here. If our galaxy ever hopes to overcome the injustices of interplanetary competition, it will never be with a spokesdweller such as yourself dominating the conversation. Promise now that you will check your cis planetary privilege, and not participate.
Outraged, you seriously need some help. I say that with all compassion. You need the services of a good psychiatrist who can belp you escape all the insane doubletalk and find a way to be healthy and enjoy life. No-one could be that deranged to actually believe what outraged has written. You have really gone off the deep-end there, buddy. Everything is a social construct. How is that fair or conducive to public good? Outraged — when you state that you are highly educated…. Outraged Stop and smell the roses. They are cis-aromatic, but I feel you need a little reality tickle to put a smile on what, I assume, is not a very happy face.
The irony in this your ludicrous rhetorics is that you want to use trans privilege in sport to trump biological realities, at the same time still blaming cis individuals as being privileged. This delusion of gender-identity and has really clouded your ability to think logically. This article stated that, either side of the coin can in some way be called discriminatory, but women sport are created for a particular range of testerone with is exceedingly low in contrast to men because of objective sexual differences.
For the record, Outraged sounds exactly like many liberal progressive cis-gendered SJWs who enjoy self flagellation. The cucks at women sports need to be bold and audacious and virtuous and define what a woman is, like has been held in common human definition since the dawn of time…. I am deeply offended by your hate speech against cis white people and demand that you step down from your pedestal of outrage. Your misandry, racism, and push for inequity holds no place here.
You are trying to erase my personhood with your bigoted point of view — where do you work? Where do you live? Mob justice is in order here. Dear Outraged, boo! You appear to have been successfully absorbed into the Borg. But at the risk of wasting a little cyberspace, I invite you as others here have to write something coherent. Otherwise, shut up. There were no real arguments made, so there is nothing to refute. If we let trans women compete, that would be bad for cis women. Thus, she is not truly Woke and must be banished to the outer darkness. Apart from listing every single possible parody descriptor invented in the last 5 years, and clearly and openly being bigoted against the I think you mean to say, If we let biological males compete, that would be bad for biological women.
Outraged, well done for formulating the current groupthink exactly.
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This analogy would work if sports were segregated into black and white athletes, and black athletes were claiming to be white so they could dominate the white field. But this has never been the case. Oh my goodness. You were actually attempting to be serious! Laughter ensues. Science and reality actually do matter. Sure and that is why Jews are so much poorer than non-Jews and Asians are so much poorer than whites. And you are seeking your own structural standards to displace those you see as benefiting groups you oppose for whatever reasons. You seek your own mountain top of privilege, and you cannot imagine that anyone on the planet has a just case for resisting your ideas.
Welcome to the human race. We need a special category for trans in the disabled Olympics: anyone who thinks he is a woman and still has testicles obviously has a mental disability at the very least. It was certainly smart of the author to prominently note that she is a multi-racial woman from a non-privileged background, married to a black, a supporter of Title IX, a humanist supporter of self-identifying except in athletic competitions to protect herself by demonstrating her high ranking on the intersectionality pyramid of victimhood and thus deflect likely abuse from the transgender and gender equality promoters of the Left.
It is sad that the Leftist insistence on attributing gender differences in athletic performance as purely a product of patriarchal socialization of girls requires the author to to use so many examples and graphs to demonstrate the reality that gender differences in hormones not only effect physical build and capacity, but also mental effects related to competitive drive and ability to deal with pressure that the author neglected to mention. Olson On the other hand this article could be viewed is a wonderful example of clear and rational thinking, here combining sports history, gender politics, and science to explore a major issue facing women in sports.
Extremely informative article in my opinion. In fact a display of virtuosity across several dimensions. Sometime all you need to say is that you are a bit of a tit. You just post the exact same comment everywhere…. Excellent breef! New Living Translation Such stupidity and ignorance!
Their eyes are closed, and they cannot see. Their minds are shut, and they cannot think. English Standard Version They know not, nor do they discern, for he has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, and their hearts, so that they cannot understand. I find it perfectly sensible that those who are identifying as a gender need to compete within those gender matrices. There is no excuse for people who simply identify to be allowed to compete when they do not have the same physical, eg testosterone, requirements that define women athletes.
If any athlete wanted to compete in any other designated group competition they need to conform to that group. Why would someone who is identifying as an alternate gender not want to compete equally with those in that group. I would think that if, as seen in this article, a person wants to compete in the female competitions, they would welcome being able to actually be defined through testing to be competing as a woman.
Perhaps, co-ed groups need to be developed so that those who want to compete as they are can do as such. Usain Bolt can compete with any other willing participant, or is that somehow not fair? The problem is puberty. Fair point. Sometimes simple is better. The rules have worked for a long time and are accepted by all competitors and adjudicators and sporting regulatory bodies who have evolved to create parity within competition levels.
I say the spoNo need to change anything, even if that microscopic portion of society is very active in social media. Their brains are not developed enough, their life experiences not long enough to be able to fully comprehend the totality of the undertaking. Absolutely dead-on. Lowering T levels in a male who has passed through puberty will mot negate the advantages of physics, anatomy and physiology male people have as compared to females. Pretending otherwise is absurd. Why, you do, in order to maintain your cis privilege.
What trans activists want is privilege of their own. If they stopped whining and got in with life, we would see most of the trans people revert to their natural state. This trans phenomenon is mostly a way for narcissists to get attention and privilege themselves above the average person.
No, we must ignore you as political animals and treat you compassionately as sick people. The rule should be simple if you were born with male sex organs and you still have those organs, you are a male for all purposes where sex differences count and a female where differences in gender count. Since the dawn of time, the privileged on whatever axis have always claimed their privilege and the consequent oppression of the marginalized is just the natural and usual order of things, and the claim of the marginalized to equality and freedom from oppression is just them wanting undeserved privilege of their own, and their refusal to stop whining and get on with life.
So, in short, check your privilege and stop cissplaining to the transgender how they should think and what they should do. Outraged Ha ah ah. Your parody is getting better and better. You just keep piling on the cliches of the woke. Of course these cliches are just rhetorical bilge the lefty tossers use to justify their own privilege.
Trans people have no right to tell anyone else how to think. Outraged If you are a parodist, you are absolutely brilliant. You should take that show on the road. At first, the lefties will think you are an SJW archangel and the righties will be cringing in horror. Then, as you get them all squarely on the hook, start playing with them until the lefties start having doubts and some of the righties start having hopes. But never let them off the hook. Keep em tangling.
You could be another Andy Kaufman. Well, almost. If, however, you are not a parodist, I hope I never sit next to you on a plane on one of your talkative days. The author of this article makes a carefully reasoned argument without resorting to purposefully hateful diatribe? You ought to check your very real hate at the door. The noun is hatred, not hate. And just because one criticises a group of people for their bad ideas or wrong actions, does not mean that one hates them. Unfortunately, these days it has become very difficult to discern the woke from the parody. The example below will illustrate my point.
WHo gets to define gender matrices? Sport adjudicators, those who have authority, knowledge and a love of sport and who wish to create a fair competition. By definition anyone taking male hormonal performance advantages into the realm of female competitions is a cheater. The ubiquity of drug cheats in elite sports is surely a testament to this. I find it cynical of Athletics South Africa to promote their case because it seems to be about supporting her just so they can win medals.
In other words, organisation sponsored cheating. Beautifully written and thoughtful piece. Lance, you are mostly right. However, there are some rare conditions under which XY persons note that I am deliberately avoiding male and female here really should be treated as females.
CAIS affects 2 to 5 per , people who are genetically male. CAIS persons look totally female and their parents typically have no reason to suspect otherwise. Nor do they until later in life. They are infertile and have a higher risk for some tumors. It appears that is precisely what is written, and. Good comment. Apparently the IAAF is a partisan leftist political organization that is involved in sports. They are not advisory—they make the rules. Only losers are ideologically opposed to the concept of competition and excellence. Apologies to Outraged if this is a parody. Impossible to know these days, because leftists are already a parody of themselves.
Not only was this ruling correct, it was also rational. Hopefully national and regional sports governing bodies will soon follow this example. Sport competition is most fundamentally about fairness. Allowing men to compete against women in sports is not fair. The extremely rare mutation should not be a benchmark for broadly changing the entire system. Absolutely outstanding and correct.
One of the biggest issues is that people who have never competed at the level you and Caster have think they have an idea as to how these things work. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Thank you for this. Society letting the ladies down again. Is there some way we could force or legislate people to enjoy and support something they are not interested in?
So much for strong and independent, eh? Despite the legs up and mollycoddling, female athletes have the balls to compare themselves to their male counterparts when it comes to compensation. Your pay gap is due to the audience gap. You appeal to very, very few. The talent gap. Maybe Ms Coleman should recognise that trans athletes offer female athletes the opportunity to divert our attention from the dismal bottom line.
For that alone they should be grateful. Semenya will have already made a singular historical contribution to our understanding of biological sex. Semenya has a birth defect. That people such as Mr Moses contort themselves to deny truth is deemed a historical contribution is ridiculous. Good point. Do most women give a toss?
Female and male, turns out to be not so simple after all. Sometimes this is of great benefit. But in the case of sex and gender it is counter-productive. No women are not less competitive by nature at all. Women , like men, compete to be the best and attract the best mates.
A Victory for Female Athletes Everywhere - Quillette
GG — good comment, and that line from the article also caught my attention. The fact is men are the major audience for sports and also the major participants as athletes, but also as coaches, referees, spotters, and others needed to make competitions happen. Men the primary audience of sports are not likely to be interested in watching fake women beat real women and setting records that no real woman is ever likely to break, because in the end it is still going to be a slower and less intense competition versus what elite men are able to do.
Are you really as boorish and chauvinistic as you sound? Good lord. So, I declare myself trans-age. Although I am, say, 18 yrs old, I declare myself 40 yrs old and I must therefore compete against others in the 40 yr age bracket. There is an advantage for a younger person competing against an older one, you say?
But I insist, I am not older. OK, just kidding, you can reclaim your sanity now. I was born in the body of a poor person, but always felt that I should have been a rich person. The Guardian, where comments are supposedly free even banned me when I mentioned this. I think I might open up my own Patreon site and see if I can garner donations from the cis-rich community.
Maybe someone out there will recognize my special uniqueness and help a poor trans brother out. And for the record, my preferred pronoun is: Mr. So you are actually cis-financial but identify as trans-financial? Maybe you could trans-form the banking industry with that binary, and make a lot of money in the process. People get too worked up about fairness. People will pay to see a competition to determine the fastest woman.
Right conservatives? If biological men want to compete as women, they are the ones who should make their own leagues. Wanting to appropriate what others build is actual leftist dogma. I am a Right Winger. Complete refusal to acknowledge that the athlete in question has testes and XY chromosomes. She is NOT allowed to compete? All the linguistic and pseudo intellectual gymnastics in the article, with irrelevant references to identity politics and victimhood, do not really address the core contradiction of the issue IMO.
We all know that in certain sports, males have a large advantage over females. That is a fact. She is a woman with a potentially unfair advantage, which she was born with. But in her case, how is her advantage any different to someone born taller than the rest of us, for example? Personally I do not think this ruling properly addressed the real issue, and is hypocritical in terms of the latest moral fashion where it is considered a wonderful thing for a male MMA fighter, who identifies as a woman, to beat the snot out of other women, or a male weight lifter to compete against women.
Did you even read that males have 10 to 30 times more testosterone than females? Did you see any person being 10 to 30 times taller than the rest of us? Every sport category needs comparable metrics range and in running its testosterone. In other e. How about biathletes with extremely low heart rates? Do we demand they to take drugs to increase their heart rates to level the playing field? Michael Phelps has a genetic advantage of low lactic acid generation, which allows him to bounce back faster than his competitors.
So do athletes similar to Phelps take drugs to inhibit that ability, to make it fair? It is rumoured that Wayne Gretzky had legendary peripheral vision. Should he have been slightly blinded in order to compete?
Castor is intersex and that gives her a natural advantage. A natural advantage just like Phelps, Gretzky, and many more. You are not bringing examples to the table of genetic advantages which help athletes as much as is the case for Semenya. Genetic variation leads to a distribution of phenotypes, which can of course bring some health advantages for some sport or the other.
The examples you mentioned are within the lower and higher boundaries of that distribution. None of your mentioned sportsmen had 10 — 30 times lower heart rate or better eyesight. Good luck with that! Castor is a guy. He is XY. Let him compete against guys. Problem: He is mediocre as a guy. He does well against women, but all guys do. I am sorry that you have been successfully brainwashed by the media. And Caster Semenya was not born a woman in any way shape or form. This person was born with an XY chromosomal makeup, testes and a lack of ovaries or a uterus.
Semenya is a man and was always a man. Seemingly the entire establishment media skipped biology class and refuses to acknowledge the simple reality of what XY chromosomes mean. She was born with genital deformities and perhaps some level of prenatal androgen insensivity. But she was never a woman. She is a man with a significant birth defect.
Thank you. Loads of people missing the point here. Some things have been self-evident for all of human history. And I am starting to speak up on this issue. Setting an upper limit on testosterone is a clever solution. Objective and clear. Anti-doping rules already acknowledge the potential for hormones to improve performance.
In the past they looked for artificial doping. A biologically male athlete competing as a woman has the same effect even if her hormone levels are natural for a male. I see this as a balancing of rights between biological women and trans or intersex women. Provided the hormonal playing field is even, then the competition is fair.
Accordingly, trans women and intersex women are not women. So why is it so hard to admit that they should not be able to compete against other women. What be much fairer would be a new category of sport: trans sport. The trans and the intersex people can then compete against each other. This standard is terrible. Wonderful article, thank you for working to protect the rights of girls and women in a culture of shouting, threats and misinformation. The answer to all these problems is to return sport to the amateur activity it began as.
Sure, no more world records, but who cares? Can we be honest? Today we cheer players crashing helmets together on the football field or groan as a gymnast breaks both her legs in lieu of bear-baiting, dog-or-cockfighting, or bare-knuckle back-alley boxing for bets. Same shit, different day, MUCH more money involved for gambling, platforms and advertising. The athletes are nothing more than a vehicle to the real, monetary end.
The Olympics are now unwatchable there are so many ads. Perhaps we should question what the ability to chase a ball or sprint has to do with the mental skills that will enable one to be successful in college and beyond. Athletic prowess, after all, usually has a short shelf life. Vanishingly few make it to financially remunerative elite levels. Thousands incur debilitating injuries trying. What comes next for them?
Some of you should hang around a barnyard long enough to learn something. All of these words.. While I go to the metaphorical salt mines every day they are arguing not about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin but what sex they are. The liberal fascist democrats have devolved to not being able to distinguish a boy from a girl………and the want to run the world?
The outcome from all of this delusion about biology is that women are eventually going to have to boycott sport. The question is whether women will do it in time to have any impact and whether they will still be able to negotiate their place in sport before they are all replaced by biological males. The clock is ticking. Thank you, Doriane Coleman. Thank you for explaining this issue so well from the point of view of a woman of color with athletic ability and experience who is a legal scholar.
This is an incredibly well written article: logical, lucid, informative and compassionate. I think the answer to this undeniably complex issue is threefold. Let biological women compete with biological women, let trans women who went through puberty as males compete with like trans women, and for the special category of athletes like Semenya 46 XY with DSD , allow them to compete as women if their T-level is lowered to the proscribed range. I feel for Ms Semanya and athletes like her, but I also completely understand the feelings of frustration and disillusionment suffered by the athletes who have to compete against pretty much insurmountable odds.
Coleman — A bit off topic, but where do you stand on female tennis players being paid the same as male players despite doing less work and garnering a much smaller share of the viewing audience, i. The vast majority of people, I have found, alas, are either unable or unwilling to critically examine their assumptions. If you critically examine your own assumptions as you suggest others fail to do…..
You are taking a hypocritical stance. You have NO supportable foundation for your preferences regarding who should be allowed to compete in what category. Your preferences are no better than anyone elses. When you claim others have no foundations….. This is in essence a classic tu quoque fallacy. But they are not. Your claim that they are is merely that, an unsupported, contradictable, and contradicted claim. Now, in general, I think sports in general whether for men or women are a huge waste of time and resources.
But given that they do exist, the supportable foundation for my preferences is that trans women should not be denied economic opportunities relative to cis women merely by virtue of being trans; and if they are, this is the very definition of discrimination and oppression. Thank you, Outraged, for your participation in this discussion. However, there are several aspects of your argument that still confuse me. Must they be forced to first self-identify as a woman or a man before they can participate in gendered sports events?
Viewed through a critical lens, it seems to me that a significant inequity would still exist, since the male-female sports divisions would still exist. Would this inequity be important to you? If so, how would you resolve it? Alternatively, perhaps you are you proposing that we abolish gender divisions in sports altogether? Abolishing gender divisions would a concern for me. As a high school teacher, I have seen many girls embrace sports.
They learn about the rewards of hard work and training and teamwork. These are all good things. If we abolished male-female sports divisions in high school, would we rob some of our girls of these learning opportunities? Please say more about how you think things should be. In fact much research in psychology, neuroimaging, etc. And in fact, the human brain is not only expert at deceiving individuals about their true motives, but this happens at an organizational and institutional level also.
And that is, of course, exactly what I am suggesting here: the existence of trans individuals is a threat to the conservative social order, and that is what all this is really about. I could easily come up with several hypothetical scenarios for which the conservative response would be quite different, yet the reality for most women athletes would be the same. For instance, in order to improve their efficacy as soldiers, the Armed Forces subjects female soldiers to an intense bout of hormonal treatments, including testosterone similar to what the East Germans did in the bad old days.
Then, when these soldiers return home from their tour of duty, some of them want to compete in athletic events. Guess what happens? Society owes them this chance, etc. The Olympics are an absolute scam and shake-down racket and should be sued out of existence, and several people put in prison, in my view IOC corruption is well known. Individual groups and organizations are free, of course, to organize their own events as they see fit.
As for high school athletics, your argument is not cogent. Yes, some students derive some personal benefit from them. But other students who do not take part in athletics might derive some personal benefits from other extracurriculars, which would not cost the schools nearly as much resources, and provide much more benefits. Imagine if instead all the money shelled out for football stadiums, uniforms, transportation, etc. But they should at the expense of women, right?
Who have been giving up their physical, emotional and psychological space to every man who decides he wants it for millennia. You know, with all the privileges women around the world currently enjoy, like lipstick and periods. You obviously failed Intersectionality And you think that being oppressed on one axis justifies continuing structures of oppression on others.
That makes you a hypocrite, just like the author in the OP. They are not privileged relative to cis men. Just like white women are privileged relative to black women on the racial axis of oppression. Yes, this means cis and white women must be willing to part with their privileges, too, if their demand to dismantle the patriarchy be more than just mere opportunism, self-interest, and hypocrisy. Which is a denial of reality, to pretend that a trans woman benefits from the patriarchal power structure in the same way that a cis man does.
What is it precisely that some trans people are so desperate to identify as? ETA: This is why conservatives will never win against the Woke. Whenever Woke ideology leads in an undesired direction, they appeal at least implicitly to a conservative principle, and conservatives very foolishly take the bait and bail the Woke out instead of forcing Woke ideology to its conclusion. The real left. Fans of college football would be justly outraged if the rules allowed NFL players to play in college games — not even a great college team like Alabama would be able to compete under those circumstances.
The effect would be to wreck college football. Have you watched College sport? The divide between very athletic and average is spectacular. College level actually is a place to watch young people who excel at their sport outright demolish average people. I mean how else could you know that someone is better if they did not show you on the field. Maybe the best way forward is to let all individuals compete without drugs. Integrate the Male and Female sports and let the best person s win. This would also eliminate the need for Title IX. This is stupid. Everybody knows that boys wear blue and girls wear pink.
It is just a matter or looking at the color, and then you know everything that is to be known. Apparently those unhappy with this ruling were not good enough to win as males and thus decided to compete as females. Wow, the desire to win overrode everything else. There is freedom of association. But the the very top levels all should compete with each other. If a Male wants to compete and beat the Female in sport X why not.
They same for a Transgender or Inter-Sex individual. Castor is a woman. End of story. Nor did Castor wake up from the couch and decided to start running today. She has put a lifetime of effort to be the most competitive at her sport. You can have a defect and not act upon it or decide to do something that the defect benefits towards. And guess what!? We all use our given benefits in life for our own advantage. And I get that it really sucks when others are plain better than you, but you may not realize that she is likely not smarter than the average bear.
She may even have a hard time in so many other fields in life just like everyone else. There is NO fairness is competition. You win or you loose. Let me put it another way. Is it fair that some are just way better at a sport than others?
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How about for IQ? How about for beauty? She has not asked to be Trans which this article has gleefully lumped in to get readers into a dizzy. She was given these benefits at birth. This is a good article. However, the author only hints at suggests the obvious conclusion. Caster Semenya is a man Xy and should be competing with other men. For fun, take a look at what Zuby did over in the UK. Check out the beard on this guy. How do you know she is a man? Semenya has been through vigorous examination for years.
He has testes internal and no ovaries or uterus. His testosterone levels are in the male range. Respectfully, Caster Semenya is a intersex person who was assigned female gender at birth. So how do you know she does not have ovaries or a uterus?